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| Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman https://www.banjalukaforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=50414 |
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| Autoru: | Oficir s ruzom [ 21 Jun 2010, 22:56 ] |
| Tema posta: | Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman |
Da se mi vratimo nasim temama  http://www.bartdehrman.com/biography.htm [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cK3Ry_icJo [/youtube] U 10 djelova nepristrasnog prezentiranja skripti, nacina nastajanja, istinitosti i interpolacija..."The story behind who changed Bible and Why" |
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| Autoru: | spavac [ 22 Jun 2010, 00:11 ] |
| Tema posta: | Re: Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman |
znaci poceo Wimbledon....  Ibn Warraq: Leaving Islam [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyufZQkUaYA[/youtube] According to Muslim sources, the story goes that the Quran got its final content ca. 650 AD (not later than 656 AD under the third caliph, Uthman). But that is not 100% true – actually far from 100% true. This partly because even if everybody was ordered to burn old Qurans and only keep the new, official one, it took at least 100 - 200 years and may be more (books after all were valuable - and represented the religion like they had learnt it) before all other ones were destroyed, and the texts were known to many educated people. This resulted in changes now and then in texts as they were copied - by hand. Besides the Arab written language at that time lacked the short vowels and also still had none of the points Arabs today use when writing (the so-called dicrital points) and the other signs like full stop, comma, etc. - the written Arab language/the alphabet was not perfected until around 900 AD. Because of that, it frequently is difficult even today to know what word really was written, as one has to guess what vowels to use and what signs are missing. In cases where more than one meaning is possible, all the different possible meanings are judged to be correct by Islam – but they are called “ways of reading” to camouflage that there really are different varieties of the text. And also in the Hadith (explanation in next chapter) it is said that according to Muhammad, the Quran was sent down in 7 versions that all were correct, even where they differed. Not to mentioned all the different varieties that existed in earlier times because of the unclear language. (f. ex. in 1972 a number of very old Qurans were found in Yemen. They turned out to have “small, but significant differences” compared to modern ones - and then western scientists were denied access.) So when a Muslim tells the Quran is always correct, it is pertinent to ask him which Quran (the Arabic Quran dominating today, is the one that happened to be dominant in Egypt when they printed an edition in 1924, the one after Hafs, whereas the one after Warsh is used in parts of Africa, especially North Africa). Actually for a long time there were 14 - fourteen - canonised versions of the book (Ibn Warraq: “Why I am not a Muslim” and others): Even after Uthman’s version, there were lots of others, partly because of the unclear alphabet. Then there was made a “final” canonisation influenced by the great Muslim teacher Ibn Mohair (dead 935 AD). They stated that 7 variants (other Muslim teachers accepted 10 to 14) had to be accepted as correct. But as each existed in two versions, one ended up with 14 different, all accepted as correct, because it was fully possible to understand the original in those different ways (and actually more), as the original as mentioned was written by means of a far from perfect alphabet. (To make an example in English: If you know that the vowels are omitted, and you have two letters you think represents a word - f. ex. “h” and “s” - the word can as well be “house” as “hose” or even “his“ or “has“). These are the canonized 14 versions (they called it “ways of reading” – as said to hide that there were many variants). 1. name is the editor, 2. and 3. names are the narrators:1+2: Nafi from Medina after Warsh or Qalun. 3+4: Ibn Kathir from Mecca after al-Bazzi or Qunbul. 5+6: Ibn Amir from Damascus after Hisham or Ibn Dhakwan. 7+8: Abu Amr from Basra after al-Duri or al-Susi. 9+10: Asim from Kufa after Hafs or Abu Bakr (not the caliph). 11+12: Hamza from Kufa after Khalaf or Khallad. 13+14: Al-Kisai from Kufa after al-Duri or Abul Harith. As you understand there is a good reason for asking Muslims which Quran is the one perfect and without mistakes - and which one Allah really sent down (if he did). Only one of these really can be 100% correct - and may be none. Most likely none - too many varieties are possible. And too many mistakes etc. in the book. |
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| Autoru: | spavac [ 22 Jun 2010, 00:41 ] |
| Tema posta: | Re: Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman |
"I think the broader implications of some of the revisionist scholarship is to say that the Quran is not an authentic book, that it was fabricated 150 years later," says Ebrahim Moosa, a Duke University religious studies professor and a Muslim cleric. |
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| Autoru: | Oficir s ruzom [ 01 Jul 2010, 15:31 ] |
| Tema posta: | Re: Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman |
spavac je napisao: znaci poceo Wimbledon.... “Sav svijet je pozornica; A ljudi, žene u njoj glumci samo, Što dolaze i odlaze sa scene;  Misljenje, pisanje i propovjedanje Ibn Waraqa jest takvo da pravi puku razliku između "djevica u raju" i " grožđa u raju"...te sve ostaje na tome...uostalom sve i da prihvatimo njegovo pisanje kao takvo nista se u sustini nije promjenilo niti imanski niti islamski sarti niti akida... a sta bi se desilo kad bi cisto hipotetički prihvatili misljenje Dr. Ehrmana mislim da se ne bi puno zadrzavali na grožđu i djevicama nego bi presli na poentu same dogme i to s punim jedrima i velikim materijalnom...nisam siguran da bi tu pomogli cak ni određeni kiraeti Ibn Warraqa...ili mislis suprotno. A sto se tice Ibrahim Musa...buduci da se koristmo you tube "dokazima" bilo bi pozeljno da se postira dokaz u kom je on rekao to sto si citirao. |
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| Autoru: | spavac [ 01 Jul 2010, 23:43 ] |
| Tema posta: | Re: Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman |
prica cova malo vise od djevica i grozdja...  isto tako prica i kako je nastao Kuran..tako da gledano hipoteticki i to jos cisto prihvatimo, dodjemo na isto kao sto ti pokusavas uraditi sa Ehrmanom..sto se tice Ehrmana i njegove teorije odgovorim ti jednog dana dok ga procitam... moje znacenje Wimbledona je sasvim drugog karaktera od tog sto si ti napisao.. |
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| Autoru: | Oficir s ruzom [ 02 Jul 2010, 10:18 ] |
| Tema posta: | Re: Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman |
spavac je napisao: prica cova malo vise od djevica i grozdja... Pa mozda, jer ako ih spojis dobićeš koktel kompota sto je u stvari isto ko i hošaf...pa ako je taj koktel djevica i grožđa postaje novi argument...onda definitivno prica o necem sasvim novom, u stvari nista novom jer je inspiraciju za svoju knjigu "Why I am Not a Muslim" upravo prekopirao iz knjige Bertranda Russela "Why I am Not a Christian"... Rekao bih da je po srijedi plegijat i pohota za pohlepom i slavom kakvu je dozivjela knjiga "Why I Am Not a Christian"...koja je dozivjela pravi bum 1995 god u krscanskom svijetu dok s druge strane "Why I Am Not a Muslim" se ugusila u vlastitom ehu zidova gdje je i pisana. Zivot i djelo Ibn Warraqa dokazuje jos jedno, a to je da se rasplinuo mit o skidanju glave s ramena onom ko iziđe iz vjere i jos napise nesto protiv Islama, kako vidimo Ibn Warraq je jos uvjek vrlo ziv. Ako nista treba postovati to sto je izisao kao covjek rekao ono sto misli i napisao i za cudo ostao ziv. Mislio sam da si Ehrmana vec prostudirao u ovih 10-tak dana koliko se nisam javljao...s druge strane Ibrahim Musa je ostao to sto je oduvjek i bio (Musliman) dok je Ehrman nakon svojih istrazivanja presao u agnostike. I jos jedno sto se tice Ibn Warraqa...mislim da je previdio čuvanje Kur'ana po vertikali...mislim da ti je poznat izraz "karije"???? Karije ne nalazim u njegovim pisanjima niti izjavama??? |
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| Autoru: | Izzard [ 02 Jul 2010, 10:26 ] |
| Tema posta: | Re: Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman |
Aj dok se vas dvojica prepucavate, iskoristicu priliku da malo izigravam gresnika. Spoiler: |
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| Autoru: | spavac [ 02 Jul 2010, 11:27 ] |
| Tema posta: | Re: Misquoting Jesus Dr.Bart D.Ehrman |
Walker, ostavi ovo za humor sekciju...  @Oficir pa taj Rusel je takodje bio plagijator sto se tice ideja... inace nije napravio neki bum, kako vi muslimani gledate na to...a takodje mozes pronaci i kritike na racun njegove knjige, teorija..
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